Introduction
Jon Jordan
Good day, and welcome to the cell video games playbook. Thanks for tuning in for an additional episode. This can be a podcast all about what makes an important cell recreation, what’s and isn’t working for cell recreation designers, and the entire newest traits. I’m your host, John Jordan. Becoming a member of me at the moment are two specialists. I’ve Christie Crable, Activations Supervisor at Liftoff. How’s it going, Christie?
Christie Crable
Hey, good to be right here. Thanks for having me.
Jon Jordan
Additionally suitably attired, we’ve got Kentaro Sugiura, a UA supervisor at Rovio. How’s it going, Kentaro?
Kentaro Sugiara
I’m okay. How are you?
Jon Jordan
You bought the official blazer on there. That’s telling folks that at the moment, we’re speaking about person acquisition. I suppose that gave the sport away by giving them your job title.
Consumer acquisition in cell gaming
Jon Jordan
So, UA within the cell area has at all times been a kind of evergreen topics. We’re at all times kind of coming again to it. It’s at all times very dynamic. There are at all times new issues taking place. However I suppose there’s at all times some kind of finest follow we are able to talk about, and we’ll kind of undergo that in at the moment’s podcast. I might say we’re going to speak, I feel, particularly extra concerning the kind of informal recreation kind of UA. There’s an unlimited vary of merchandise in MOA gaming, and there are explicit methods during which you may need to deal with that for various sorts of genres, however we’ll kind of preserve it on the informal stage at the moment. So, I needed to kick off with you, Kentaro. You’re the kind of the professional day-to-day UA supervisor at Rovio. At a excessive stage, may you inform us a few of the traits you’ve been seeing over the previous few years? Since you’ve had a reasonably respectable profession within the sector. So, what are the headline figures and headline traits you’ve been seeing?
Kentaro Sugiara
Yeah, I’ve been observing the excessive compression out there for just a few years. The compression out there is getting larger and greater. So, in an informal area now, the CPI is rising. So, in order for you a sustainable UA marketing campaign, you additionally want some product updates. It’s worthwhile to have the next ARPU. That’s the one development. And to…
Some informal builders are introducing mini-games or different issues to scale back CPI. It’s because you make a recreation extra for a broad viewers. In order that’s one development I’ve been observing.
Jon Jordan
Christie, you’re not concerned on a day-to-day stage like Kentaro, however what do you see, I suppose, as a one-step eliminated out of your overview of UA?
Christie Crable
Yeah, I need to echo what Kentaro is saying. We’re seeing many informal video games add a mini-game component to increase their audiences. instance of that is Royal Match, which lately added a on line casino mini-game. It simply helps them increase their viewers to focus on customers who may need totally different motivations or be all for totally different sorts of recreation options, get them into the sport, after which get them hooked.
Jon Jordan
And I suppose this kind of already highlights the, I might say it’s consideration, possibly it’s not consideration, however clearly, kind of UA is, you’ve a recreation that you just’re kind of actually happy with, and also you need to get that recreation in entrance of the largest viewers you may. Since you suppose this recreation goes to be nice. They’re going to adore it. We’re going to generate income both via in-app purchases or promoting. However equally, you then get on this state of affairs the place, as Kentaro’s speaking about, it’s very aggressive as a market, and different folks in that very same style suppose their recreation is great as nicely. After which you’ve this rigidity of how particularly will we promote that recreation or, you understand, it’s attention-grabbing that individuals are saying, nicely, we’ll modify our recreation so as to add some extra gameplay so we are able to change our promoting. So it’s fairly an thrilling kind of inventive rigidity about how UA is now feeding again into product design, which, for a complete outsider, looks as if fairly a major change that’s occurred over current years.
Christie Crable
Yeah, the push and pull are essential, although. The UA managers are on the entrance strains. They’re those who know which sorts of creativity resonate nicely with the goal person. Suppose they see {that a} explicit characteristic highlighted within the inventive is working or {that a} explicit mini-game is resonating. In that case, they will return that suggestions to the product staff and increase the product. I feel that the suggestions loop is admittedly essential. We’re seeing that really with Kentaro, your recreation Offended Birds 2. You’re in that market area, and Offended Birds has carried out an important job of increasing with mini-games within the PVP and PVE area, so it’s like including that stage of competitors that retains these customers engaged and wanting to return again and desirous to play.
Offended Birds 2 and UA methods
Jon Jordan
Are you able to speak a bit extra about that, Kentaro? I bear in mind when Offended Birds 2 got here out. It was what you’d anticipate an Offended Birds recreation to be. How has that modified, as you need to increase it to new audiences with totally different advertising, and the way has that suggestions loop into the product work?
Kentaro Sugiara
Sure, so Offended Birds 2 has quite a lot of minigame options. So, as Christie talked about, we do have the PVP characteristic, which is known as the Enviornment. We even have Tower of the Fortune, which is a bit like a roulette or cube operate. You’ve just a few playing cards, and you have to select one card and also you get some reward.
So, we increase our viewers by including new options. From the UA aspect, particularly for creatives, we attempt to improve the sport’s components and appeal to totally different sorts of customers.
Jon Jordan
Being a part of the UA staff, how does that suggestions work whenever you’re speaking to the product staff? Have they needed to be extra versatile? Do they discover that kind of a constructive factor the place they go? Nice, we are able to add these new issues into the sport. Typically, I think about some creatives going nicely. That is my recreation, and I’m not sure if I need to add a mini-game. How does that movement occur?
Kentaro Sugiara
Sure. Our product staff could be very tuned to what’s taking place within the UA, particularly within the UA inventive. So, we do have common periods to speak about creatives. Relating to the mini-game, we’re nonetheless growing with Offended Birds 2. At Rovio, we see some nice outcomes by way of person engagement with the mini-games.
With Offended Birds 2, it’s difficult. There are just a few causes. One of many causes is that our recreation is panorama, whereas most different locations are portrait. So we have to alter the UI from portrait to panorama or vice versa, relying on what sort of concept we’ve got. If the idea is extra from the UA aspect, it’s portrait. After which, we have to discover a solution to make this portrait, the playable minigame, into panorama. And if the thought comes from the product staff, vice versa. So this is among the challenges. Additionally, we do see the shortage of minigames; it’s not an issue. The issue is discovering a mini-game that may scale on the UA and appeal to the present product customers. So I feel that’s one of many greatest challenges we’ve got at this second.
Jon Jordan
It’s additionally, I imply, coming again to particularly Offended Birds 2, One of many benefits you’ve in that recreation is you’ve very recognisable characters—a few of the most recognisable characters in cell gaming. Clearly, Offended Birds is among the large, most likely one of many first large, you understand, cell recreation successes, and no matter we are actually over a decade on, it’s very recognisable globally. Is that one thing that kind of you may leverage by way of your UA that you would be able to, you understand, you don’t must have this kind of context the place it’s a recreation I’ve by no means heard of, and who’re these characters? Is {that a} constructive factor that you need to use?
Kentaro Sugiara
Sure, having a globally recognizable IP helps our UA operation. Extra particularly, we see a greater IPM due to the Offended Birds model. Our inner examine reveals the IPM distinction between the Offended Birds and non-Offended Birds creatives. We do see a major efficiency uplift with Offended Bull characters.
Artistic methods and challenges
Jon Jordan
Yeah, sure. You’d wish to see that, so get away from Offended Birds. I imply, Christie, it’s one thing you may talk about. After I say rigidity, one of many issues we’ve got seen and a few type of, I suppose, mentioning no names, however we are able to typically see the UA inventive and the precise recreation kind of diverging. Through the years, typically that’s turn out to be a humorous meme, and typically it’s not. Do we expect folks have typically discovered the candy spot the place, you understand, you’re not kind of promoting somebody a recreation that you would be able to’t then replicate within the recreation? The best factor is simply to make a implausible advert. Nicely, it’s wonderful; you then go to the sport and marvel the place that little bit of the sport is.
Christie Crable
Completely, yeah. And for those who had an important advert that didn’t match the precise gameplay, your person retention could be horrible. However one of many attention-grabbing new traits we’re seeing is long-form video content material and adverts. So, these 90-second advert areas that give manufacturers quite a lot of room for experimentation. So you may preserve that core gameplay. You possibly can guarantee that the advert will not be deceptive. However it’s also possible to begin with one thing splashy, like an interactive piece and even an influencer, some UGC, or a creator responding to a selected piece of gameplay. Then you may present that core gameplay. You possibly can spotlight these well-known model photos or these particular characters after which have a name to motion. And that 90 second lengthy video is giving advertisers extra room to play and have enjoyable whereas nonetheless staying true to the core gameplay.
Jon Jordan
And I suppose the usage of issues like influencers, once more, a double-edged sword, however I suppose that kind of, for those who don’t have an important model like Offended Birds, that kind of will get round that a bit of bit since you’re like, that’s what they’re taking part in, that’s it. So some type of, then, the advert will not be straight essentially getting you into the sport, so there’s a broader kind of inventive, you understand, horizon or one thing.
Christie Crable
Completely. The UGC model is so ubiquitous now. Persons are spending tons of time on TikTok or Instagram. After they see an advert with a creator and listen to the creator react to the gameplay or say why they’re so enthusiastic about taking part in a selected recreation, it’s so acquainted that it resonates with them. We’re seeing quite a lot of success on the DSP aspect operating creatives that embody influencer faces.
Exploring totally different channels
Jon Jordan
They’re turning into meta manufacturers throughout the trade. Kentaro, we first talked about totally different channels. TikTok has been in a giant bang over the previous few years, however how do you see that panorama taking place now? Are there explicit channels which might be nonetheless hotter than others, or is it a part of UA that you just simply, you understand, go the place eyeballs are, you don’t have explicit, you understand, favorite locations to function?
Kentaro Sugiara
Yeah. TikTok is an thrilling and difficult community to handle. AB2 is already 9 years outdated, and our viewers is getting older. We attempt to get the youthful viewers. TikTok is a superb channel for buying a youthful viewers. We additionally differentiate our content material on TikTok, so we use extra UCC content material. We’ve got partnership with TikTok, they usually tried to assist us develop a brand new inventive concept for UCC content material. And yeah, we do see some efficiency uplift with that. So positively, they’re going to do one thing that we’re specializing in at this second.
Jon Jordan
You’ve been speaking about doing a little stuff on TikTok, possibly focusing on a kind of youthful viewers, however that kind of, are you simply trying there to drive downloads, or are you trying then some type of past the downloads to see, you understand, the way you’re monetising them or what different kind of outcomes you’re on the lookout for to inform you that was marketing campaign? As a result of that’s the tip of the day. That’s the essential factor: did that marketing campaign meet our objectives? So, what are these objectives that you just’re attempting to drive?
Kentaro Sugiara
Yeah, yeah. Thanks for explaining your query. We’re operating a TikTok marketing campaign as a business-as-user marketing campaign, that means that we’re optimising the marketing campaign in the direction of our ROI objective. We do see some product updates on the TikTok aspect, and the product updates assist us discover invaluable customers on TikTok. Along with the inventive optimisation, the efficiency is getting higher. We don’t have any drawback operating a profitable and sustainable marketing campaign on TikTok.
Jon Jordan
Okay. Christie, we talked fairly a bit about TikTok. Is that also the place nearly all of folks you suppose are taking a look at? Or is there, I suppose, there’s at all times kind of, I feel, a stability between, you understand, the totally different kind of instruments that these folks have and…
Christie Crable
Yeah, I positively suppose there’s a stability, and I feel platforms like TikTok are extra like model consciousness. So possibly the objectives there for a lot of manufacturers are ITI or IPM. The objective whenever you’re operating adverts on a DSP could be D7 ROAS or person retention. Thus manufacturers are taking a look at how they weigh the budgets throughout these totally different channels to suit the fitting advertising combine. Liftoff, you understand, we’re a DSP. So we’re extra centered on these downstream or down funnel objectives. And so taking a look at person retention and possibly a few of these key indicator metrics which may point out {that a} person goes to retain or going to turn out to be a whale. Did they cross a sure stage? Did they work together with the sport on day two and day three? Did they take a sure motion or take part possibly in a sure mini-game or PVP competitors? These indicators can actually assist to determine if a marketing campaign goes to achieve success within the long-term, particularly when some builders are trying possibly at even 12 months out; what’s the lifetime worth of a person? So how can we determine these key indicator metrics to start with that assist guarantee that we’re in the fitting route?
Jon Jordan
And for these of us who are usually not specialists, day seven ROAS, unpick that for us.
Christie Crable
Certain, positive. So, day seven ROAS could be the return on the advert spend after seven days after we’ve retained a person. So what return are we getting seven days after that person makes the set up.
Jon Jordan
And that will be a return by way of them taking a look at adverts, in-app purchases, or each?
Christie Crable
Both taking a look at adverts or making an app buy. It actually is dependent upon how the app is monetizing. However sure, what return or what revenue are we making from that person that we acquired via that UA marketing campaign?
Jon Jordan
And the kind of scale of that from seven days to 360, that’s fairly a little bit of elastic.
Christie Crable
Completely. And I feel once more right here, we talked about just like the push and pull earlier than, however there’s a push and pull of that, optimizing campaigns shortly and making fast choices after which taking a look at that long run person retention. So, there’s quite a bit {that a} UA supervisor can do on the UA aspect to optimize campaigns, swap out creatives, to focus on new audiences. However then once more, that suggestions loop comes again to the product. As soon as the UA staff has carried out the exhausting work of getting the person into the app, how does the product staff do the exhausting work of maintaining the person within the recreation, maintaining them entertained, and maintaining them coming again? I feel, Kentaro, that goes again to a few of the stuff you have been speaking about earlier than with new product options, mini-games, competitions, and people person engagement options that actually preserve customers retained.
Jon Jordan
I feel that most likely goes to focus on the truth that it’s not simply, you understand, you’re simply making mini-games to make your kind of, you understand, preliminary UA advert look extra interesting. It’s, the entire level is, is, is a kind of ongoing kind of state of affairs the place you’re getting them in after which they go, that’s the, yeah, that’s why I got here right here, I noticed the advert and appreciated that. After which, they hopefully go off after which discover different bits of the sport that you just didn’t promote. So, I imply, Kentaro, how do you, the place do you kind of sit in that kind of D7 to D365? Do you suppose there’s a selected candy spot in there? Does it rely, I suppose, on the product to a point?
Kentaro Sugiara
Yeah, I feel it is dependent upon the product and likewise the payback interval, like how lengthy you may anticipate the cash to return again.
The position of AI in person acquisition
Jon Jordan
One factor I’m kind of at all times all for, and also you talked about it kind of a bit of bit, is kind of use the time period switching inventive Christie, and I ponder now we’re on this kind of programmable kind of world the place you understand, and I suppose we possibly get onto a little bit of this with speaking about AI later, however you know the way simply automated are these conditions? How shortly are you simply kind of churning stuff via with out it turning into extra like a black field the place possibly folks aren’t too nervous about precisely what you’re kind of serving as much as folks. You’re simply kind of virtually taking a look at, you understand, what’s your day seven ROAS? Are we fairly at that stage but? Or is that the robots taking on by way of simply serving up that kind of stuff? And also you, you understand, as a result of think about, you understand, you talked about, you understand, just a few channels, however there’s, you understand, there’s all these totally different social platforms on the market, you could be operating issues globally, you’ve acquired all these totally different demographics and totally different age teams, I imply it turns into this huge matrix of 1000’s and 1000’s of information factors. So…
Christie Crable
I don’t suppose AI is taking inventive groups from zero to 1. I don’t suppose we’re in a spot the place we’re plugging phrases into an AI and simply getting taking pictures out inventive. However I do suppose the place AI actually helps the UA staff scale is in iteration, whether or not that’s localizations of language or small modifications to explicit items of inventive. It’s a extremely good way for groups who don’t have a ton of sources to end up adverts at scale which might be extra focused to particular area of interest audiences. Particularly with regards to language localization, we’ve seen nice instruments which might be capable of shortly take a creator’s voice and put it into a unique language that seems like their voice and helps it to really feel extra genuine to that concentrate on viewers.
So, AI is a superb instrument for UA groups to increase upon the inventive and the work that they’re already doing. I additionally suppose that AI will be actually useful for inventive technology. Should you put in concepts which might be already working, AI can assist iterate on these scripts or make new iterations of particular campaigns or ideas which might be working. So once more, I don’t suppose it’s a zero-to-one. I don’t suppose you may simply load up ChatGPT and all of the sudden have an important UA marketing campaign; the inventive mind behind most UA campaigns remains to be actually essential, however it’s an important instrument to boost leverage and amplify what’s already happening.
Jon Jordan
Kentaro, does Rovio have a secret button that they press, and it all of the AI comes out the opposite finish? Not but.
Kentaro Sugiara
Yeah, I feel I’m aligning with what Christie talked about. So I feel AI, no less than for the UA -created manufacturing, AI remains to be restricted. So it’s a very helpful and highly effective instrument for asset productions, for making a easy variation, however nonetheless not one thing we are able to depend on from zero to 1, inventive manufacturing. So, yeah, that is what I see at this second. So, at Rovio, we’ve got some inner AI instruments. It’s tremendous attention-grabbing. You place some phrases, you understand, like generate some AI picture. I like to make use of some AI instruments, however nonetheless, it’s extra like a supportive instrument than one thing, you understand, a standalone instrument which might make UA creatives.
Jon Jordan
Do you suppose that’s simply kind of a limitation of the present know-how and the truth that it’s primarily a generalized kind of factor and possibly not particular sufficient for what you would want for recreation property? I imply, if we get chat GPT-6, does that take us from zero to 1? Is it simply that we’re on this kind of present state of affairs the place it’s simply not fairly at that stage?
And if that’s the case, is that good for the trade the place there’s you simply hit a button, and it simply goes off and does its factor and you understand, would that be a constructive? I suppose that’s a extra philosophical query, I suppose, however you understand, have a crack at it.
Christie Crable
I’ve to say AI is nearly as good because the inputs. And you discover that whenever you’re utilizing ChatGPT only for every day life for those who sort a query, it would return a mediocre reply. After which, for those who give it much more instruction and much more steerage, you’ll get one thing significantly better. So a UA staff that has quite a lot of model historical past and has quite a lot of already inventive model property, is aware of what resonates with the person, has the entire information and the historical past behind what makes inventive and may enter all of that into an AI instrument, I feel the inventive output goes to be so significantly better than if there’s a brand new studio that’s up and coming they usually simply say, hey, make us some creatives for this recreation. The output will not be gonna, it’s gonna really feel like AI. Persons are gonna know that they’re watching one thing that’s not actual. So I feel having the data and the information and the established model actually will assist these AI outputs be extra impactful for UA groups.
Jon Jordan
It appears to make some kind of sense that if the groups with clearly kind of sensible groups, you hope and with these with kind of an extended historical past of kind of how they take care of their model property, that’s going to lead to one thing much less generic as a result of I suppose one of many issues no less than with the kind of ChatGPT, generative stuff in the intervening time is it does look very generic for those who simply take the generic output.
You possibly can prepare that with the prompts, however it will appear to be in the intervening time; no less than you may find yourself with very generic outputs, which, clearly, for those who’re attempting to do UA and make your recreation stand out… I suppose you discover {that a} bit with RPGs. The characters all look the identical. You get like, right here’s the elf character, right here’s the dwarf character, and it’s virtually the other of what you need, isn’t it?
Christie Crable
Yeah. I feel the place AI also can assistance is by way of information evaluation and Kentaro, I’m positive you may validate this, however UA groups spend tons of time in Excel or taking a look at spreadsheets or pulling giant information units. And people will be fed into AI instruments and in contrast, you understand, AI instruments can now learn photos. So it’s also possible to insert your creatives and share them with the AI the information of explicit creatives and get some concepts and suggestions from it that then the actual groups can use to take and make smarter choices.
Kentaro Sugiara
I agree. AI is nice for information evaluation and likewise for checking code. I personally use chatGPT day by day to evaluation my code as a result of it’s at all times damaged. Discovering a mistake in my code is usually time-consuming, so I simply write a code examine, use chatGPT and paste the code and I can say we are going to discover out my mistake in a short time.
Way forward for person acquisition and AI integration
Jon Jordan
In, say, 5 years time, do you suppose that it’s going to kind of have radically modified kind of the job you do? Or is it simply gonna be one thing the place it simply will get significantly better as an assistant? I suppose, you understand, possibly it’s one thing to do notably with AI, however I feel, typically, are we at this kind of cusp the place, you understand, we’ve got AI assistants now, however does it turn out to be transformative greater than that? I imply, I’m not an AI professional, I don’t know.
Kentaro Sugiara
Yeah, I feel the UA supervisor job is getting extra easy —not simpler. I bear in mind after I began working as a UA supervisor virtually 10 years in the past. I used to be shopping for a site visitors CPC or CPM, possibly a bit of bit CPI. The corporate began to develop a product focusing on CPA and ROAS. So earlier than, I used to be checking the CPI and I used to be checking the payer price, the whole lot manually. However now, I’m nonetheless doing that, however many of the optimization half was carried out on the community aspect. So not simply the AI, however due to the, due to the higher know-how, the UA supervisor’s job is extra easy by way of information evaluation and optimization. However once more, it doesn’t imply that our job is getting simpler. I feel now we have to focus extra on the creatives, like how we are able to appeal to new customers. So we should be extra inventive.
Jon Jordan
Everybody must be inventive in a approach, in a extra structured and higher approach for the merchandise that they’re producing quite than, I suppose, that’s the specialisation that occurs over time. We start with everybody kind of has a kind of roughly the identical instruments and it doesn’t differentiate their product. And I suppose that’s actually the… What you’re doing with UA, which is only a very specialised type of advertising, is it’s similar to turning into extra centered.
What really is it that we’re, that it’s our product and what really is it that we are attempting to excite folks about, which is kind of coming again to the place we kind of began out from. Any ideas on that, Christie? You appear barely extra AI skeptical, however I imply, in a way, you understand, it’s going to affect the video games trade typically, however the video games trade will at all times should be kind of understanding methods of promoting its merchandise to seek out an viewers for itself.
Christie Crable
Yeah, I feel in Kentaro, what you’re saying will not be that your job has turn out to be essentially simpler, however simply that these instruments free you as much as be extra strategic, and you must be extra strategic as a result of everybody else has the identical instruments. And so, the trade is simply going to get an increasing number of aggressive as these instruments permit groups to have, spend much less time within the weeds and the information and extra time pondering large image, and making strategic choices. They’re going to be shortly iterating on creatives or increasing their creatives to totally different geos. So I feel AI may probably simply increase the market and make that job uniquely specialised and a bit of bit tougher.
Jon Jordan
That sounds good, although. It sounds constructive for UA managers. It takes away the boring, tedious stuff, like checking new code, and it permits you to turn out to be the UA visionary. Yeah.
Kentaro Sugiara
Yeah, yeah, like, much less minor work, however extra inventive work.
Christie Crable
Undoubtedly.
Jon Jordan
There we go. Nicely, I feel that’s place to conclude our dialog on the traits of UA. Thanks very a lot to Christie and Kentaro for our dialogue on UA. Possibly acquired a bit philosophical, I don’t know. I feel that’s good. And due to you for watching and listening to the podcast; nonetheless you’re consuming it. Each episode we’re speaking about what’s happening in cell gaming, which is clearly the largest a part of the video games trade and probably the most dynamic as nicely. So I hope you’re having fun with them. Do subscribe through your podcast channel of Selection and are available again subsequent time. See you then.