Introduction
Jon Jordan: Whats up and welcome to the Cell Video games Playbook! Thanks for tuning in for an additional episode. That is the podcast all about what makes a fantastic cellular sport, what’s and isn’t working for cellular sport designers and cellular sport entrepreneurs, as we’ll be speaking about immediately, and all the newest tendencies.
I’m your host Jon Jordan and becoming a member of me immediately to speak about cellular development advertising and marketing and different issues we’ve got Saikala Sultanova. How’s it going?
Saikala Sultanova: Yeah, it’s going nicely. Thanks for having me!
Jon Jordan: We’ve talked loads about UA, nevertheless it’s attention-grabbing within the dialogue round development advertising and marketing, which you suppose is a barely totally different factor than UA. We’re going to get into that a bit bit. We’ll additionally speak in regards to the distinction between sport advertising and marketing and non-game advertising and marketing.
However to set the scene, I feel it could be good to listen to about your fairly attention-grabbing profession as a result of it units up what we’ll be speaking about on this podcast. Would you thoughts spending a while simply telling us what you’ve been as much as in your profession lately?
Saikala Sultanova: Sure, so what I’ve been as much as over possibly 14 years or so helps cellular video games and apps develop at locations like Huuuge Video games, Product Insanity, Ace Video games, and a few early-stage startups as nicely. I’ve realized find out how to convey groups collectively and clear up real-world development challenges.
With each product that goes dwell, a lot preparation must be achieved, whether or not it’s launching a significant IP, constructing information infrastructure with information groups, or determining contemporary methods to sort out new markets. This contains new issues which may give you measurement, inventive manufacturing, or something like that.
Saikala’s profession journey in video games and apps
Jon Jordan: You even have a video collection which is expounded to that. Inform us a bit bit about that.
Saikala Sultanova: I watch so many movies and podcasts on the market, and I used to be curious how individuals really do it. So I wished to experiment myself: interviewing attention-grabbing people who I meet. Typically they’re not very simple to search out time with, however they’ve attention-grabbing tales, inspiring tales; they’ve had challenges and failures. They’ve a journey of their life, each private and enterprise.
The thought was to attach with these individuals, give them a platform the place they will share their story, and on the finish of every episode, I ask them to provide their two cents of recommendation to whoever’s listening. You hear their tales, wins, failures, and classes realized, and what they may do higher subsequent time. Anyway, that’s me just about experimenting. I don’t know find out how to do podcasts.
Jon Jordan: Be part of the membership! Precisely. We simply have a great dialog. So, thanks for that introduction. We’ll pull out a few of your experience hopefully over the subsequent half-hour or so.
Pilot testing in UA: The place to start
Jon Jordan: We’re going to begin off with one thing fairly particular. We’ve spoken within the podcast about UA loads in numerous contexts, however I don’t suppose we’ve ever spoken about the way you do pilot testing and testing in person acquisition.
That is the primary time you’re introducing a product and looking for an viewers, and that basically units the scene. After I take into consideration person acquisition, I take into consideration these large campaigns and the extra established stuff, however setting the parameters for the way you’re going to search out an viewers on your product is definitely one of many essential issues. In the event you head up within the unsuitable path, you’re going to search out it troublesome to fulfil your objective.
So once you’re working with groups, once you’re fascinated about beginning UA campaigns, the place do you begin? What have you ever discovered works finest?
Saikala Sultanova: Everybody begins testing, and everybody goes with information first as a result of in efficiency advertising and marketing, which is my strongest background, we consider that information tells you the reality. That’s true, however solely partially. As a result of numerous gaming and app corporations launch a product and ask, “Who’s going to love my product?”
Some corporations begin with a speculation and do qualitative testing first, possibly interviews or surveys, making an attempt to grasp the place the product-market match is, or if their product speculation is an effective match for the market and might develop into a enterprise.
As soon as that’s achieved, I at all times like to begin with a transparent speculation: What am I really making an attempt to show or be taught? In pilot testing, which is a bit sooner than the rollout testing, we work carefully with groups to arrange preliminary campaigns with managed budgets, specializing in well-defined segments, whether or not it’s inventive variations or totally different artwork ideas.
To me, the important thing milestones are, primary, getting clear information early with the intention to see if it’s exhibiting you some indication. Quantity two is hitting statistical significance, since you may see nice outcomes, but when it’s simply 5 conversions, that doesn’t make sense. You want one thing that’s going to scale as a enterprise.
After which lastly, quantity three is knowing person behaviour, not simply from the surface-level metrics, however the way it goes a bit bit additional and the way it’s going that will help you make selections.
You’re going to have a number of follow-up questions with the broader crew, and it’s essential to verify there’s sufficient information to make sure you have just one speculation or you might be answering one query. After you have the outcomes, share them with the broader crew within the firm; advertising and marketing, product, it doesn’t matter. Everybody ought to perceive and be taught, as a result of that means you get everybody on board and might make a joint resolution on the subsequent step.
The function of qualitative perception in a data-driven world
Jon Jordan: It’s attention-grabbing you talked about issues like person interviews. Clearly, that doesn’t actually scale, so do you continue to suppose that’s one thing individuals needs to be doing for each product, simply to get some anecdotal concepts?
You say the large information is the place loads of the main target is, so possibly individuals suppose as of late that kind of qualitative speaking to potential customers doesn’t actually stack up in the identical means; possibly it’s not so actionable. However do you suppose it nonetheless has a price in getting an thought of the way you’re going to be doing advertising and marketing?
Saikala Sultanova: The appliance is twofold. One, within the earlier phases, it’s about product-market match, and it’s predominantly on the product facet to determine whether or not their thought may have legs to stroll on and develop into a enterprise.
That’s one. However relating to advertising and marketing, individuals usually bounce straight into getting sufficient information and the statistical significance that I discussed earlier. That’s the appropriate means of doing it as a result of it’s one thing measurable, one thing you possibly can depend on, and one thing that you may make conclusions from.
Nevertheless, one of many issues that I’ve realized, and I’ve at all times been a quant particular person, is that when you run all of the quantitative exams, it provides you a solution: this works, this doesn’t work, sure, no. It by no means tells you why.
So the qualitative half provides you the reply or can provide you a sign of why.
I’ll offer you one instance. After I was at a earlier firm, we have been making ready to run a TV marketing campaign and to go large on a giant display screen within the US, for instance, it’s good to do numerous preparation and testing, and it’s very costly. So, the stakes and expectations from a enterprise perspective are excessive.
How are you going to guarantee that all the pieces is as optimum as it may be, not simply with the channel combine, placements, day parting, or the size of the inventive, however how will you guarantee that really individuals within the US, your audience, are going to interact with it?
Are they going to listen to the voiceover, take pleasure in your inventive, and truly observe up with their response or search by themselves to go in and obtain your product and play the sport?
We did all of the testing, we ready all the pieces. All the things was achieved. After which there was this intestine feeling. One thing in our inventive simply wanted one other reassurance. We’d achieved the quant testing like 3 times, and all the pieces checked out aside from that intestine feeling.
The recommendation was to go and ask individuals what they actually suppose. And it was eye-opening. Actually, we have been asking individuals who play opponents’ video games, our video games, and related issues, to look at the video trailer and inform us how they really feel, what they suppose, and what they perceive. Is it clear?
And the feedback we obtained have been:
“That voiceover was annoying.”
“Yeah, that’s nice.”
“Right here could possibly be higher, right here could possibly be higher.”
However the voiceover was annoying. And that is one thing I couldn’t perceive immediately as a result of I’m not American, I don’t dwell there. So, for me, it simply sounded good.
Then we realized a few different bits after listening to individuals’s qualitative suggestions. The pattern dimension was lower than 10 individuals. After which it was like, “Okay, bingo, now it is smart.”
So, we went again to the drafting board, adjusted the inventive, made it higher, examined once more, and solely then went dwell.
Crafting efficient take a look at plans and avoiding frequent pitfalls
Jon Jordan: It’s wonderful that you simply don’t have to speak to 200 individuals. That might be fairly a giant effort. In the event you’re saying simply begin with a couple of individuals, possibly not for each product, you may get that suggestions fairly rapidly that everybody’s saying the identical factor.
Saikala Sultanova: Yeah, however you see it’s a unique software. For a product, you want a bit earlier interviewing, a smaller pattern dimension, and getting that high quality info.
However for advertising and marketing, it’s in regards to the software scalability. When it’s one thing like a giant TV, or large display screen, the stakes are excessive, and it’s important to do each type of testing to guarantee that the cash you spend goes to be price it.
Jon Jordan: There may be nonetheless a spot for these kinds of points, however clearly the principle factor is getting the info, getting the quantitative stuff. So once you’re taking a look at a take a look at plan, what’s a great take a look at plan? What kind of issues are you on the lookout for?
Clearly, there are tons of various KPIs that you can be utilizing. What’s the kind of stuff that you simply suppose is finest observe?
Saikala Sultanova: Nicely, a typical stable take a look at plan is usually about readability. You wish to have your take a look at aims, viewers segmentations, inventive variance, channel combine, timing, you identify it. It’s all the identical factor. It’s not rocket science, and we’ve identified about it for greater than a decade.
Defining metrics is just about related throughout the board in gaming: CPI, retention (Day 1, 3, 7), ROAS, LTV, PLTV as nicely.
From my current expertise working with non-gaming corporations, they don’t name it CPI; for them, it’s CAC (Buyer Acquisition Price) as a result of it’s not simply an Apple launch. It’s a bit bit extra registration and possibly somebody onboarding with funds and issues like that.
A very powerful factor is defining the objective that you simply’re aiming to work in direction of, after which making use of all of that.
Additionally, make it a little bit of a behavior and undergo due diligence. If there are information gaps, attribution logic points, or something to do with objectives or projections that you simply obtained from the product, primarily based on no matter info they discovered on-line, or generally the knowledge is outdated, it’s essential to run a sanity examine and flag these items.
Everyone seems to be an professional of their subject, and development advertising and marketing’s duty is to guarantee that the newest and most correct info accessible is communicated to the entire wider crew.
Jon Jordan: It’s attention-grabbing that a few occasions already you’ve kind of come again to there’s what the expansion advertising and marketing crew are doing or the UA crew—they’re getting all this information—however in and of itself, that’s not helpful except it’s feeding again into the broader organisation.
Issues need to be joined up. You may’t simply have a fantastic UA crew who’s doing all of the work and arising with these numbers in the event that they’re not getting assist or if they will’t speak to the remainder of the product crew. Then I assume it’s a bit ineffective.
Saikala Sultanova: It’s ineffective, nevertheless it additionally makes it a lot more durable for each groups. Hypothetically, the product crew thinks the expansion crew does black magic or no matter with algorithms and bidding, which isn’t true, as a result of there isn’t any black magic.
After which the advertising and marketing crew doesn’t converse sufficient to product and interact on expectations, or give sufficient info on what actuality is. That is when misalignment occurs.
What I’ve realized from previous expertise, good or unhealthy, is that it’s actually essential simply to have one other dialog and align on expectations, and clearly, explicitly clarify what expectations from each side are, after which align.
As a result of more often than not they’re not aligned; each groups suppose various things, after which the info crew thinks one thing else. It’s actually essential to come back to a center floor as a result of no one can have their cake and eat it.
It’s going to be a compromise on each single half to come back to a joint settlement with the intention to shake arms and go dwell.
Jon Jordan: So clearly one other a part of doing that is A/B testing, or the extra difficult multivariate testing as nicely. What are your views on that? I assume A/B testing is one thing everybody has a good suggestion of.
Is {that a} bit outdated now, or are these new, extra complicated methods of testing taking on?
Saikala Sultanova: In development advertising and marketing on promoting, UA, no matter you name it, I’m a fan of straightforward A/B testing. It provides a solution fast sufficient, and it’s a sure or no, principally.
It’s additionally a bit cheaper, after which you possibly can transfer on, as a result of time is a very powerful foreign money you might have. Particularly if you’re an early-stage startup, you might have your run charge, and time is the most costly factor you might have.
In fact, multivariable testing is feasible, and it’s extra complicated and complex and appears cool, no matter. However you solely try this when you might have much more cash to spend on promoting or advertising and marketing testing generally, as a result of multivariable testing is extra complicated, and it simply takes much more cash.
Jon Jordan: On this early section, have one query that goes again to having it easy.
It’s very simple to get overwhelmed with all this information that’s coming in, and loads of it’s that you may change one variable after which that strikes the opposite variable the unsuitable means, after which you end up in a little bit of a pickle.
Saikala Sultanova: You already know what the basic factor is that occurs on a regular basis? I’ve seen that in gaming on a regular basis, and I didn’t know that different industries do the identical, and now I’ve realized that they do.
Greediness. “Oh, we’re going to run this take a look at, and we’re going to convey these 20,000 customers, and we’re going to analyse, and with these 20,000 customers, we’re going to reply questions A, B, C.”
It’s not going to provide the identical pattern dimension. And possibly for testing one thing like this, you want a unique mixture of community, pattern dimension, and possibly a unique nation, platform, and all of those sorts of issues.
After which individuals go, “However why can’t we simply try this? As a result of different corporations do it.”
It’s like, “Okay, the opposite firm will not be doing it the correct means.”
As a result of if you wish to have a transparent, conclusive reply—does it work? does it not work? and possibly why generally should you do a bit extra analysis—then it’s good to have only one factor.
And it’s actually arduous to stay to it, as a result of then advertising and marketing and product groups will begin multiplying questions and prices of discovering solutions to these.
It turns into loads, however that is when everybody must prioritise which questions are a very powerful and probably the most impactful in your product launch or making it a enterprise, as a result of some questions are simply not that helpful.
Jon Jordan: Coming to the top of beginning off this advertising and marketing pilot testing of UA, what are the important thing learnings you suppose individuals ought to concentrate on, and the errors that you simply’re seeing probably the most that folks naturally fall into in the event that they’re not considering forward?
Saikala Sultanova: One of the vital frequent errors is testing too many variables directly. As I simply mentioned, this muddles their outcomes, and you could find yourself with no conclusive reply, then you definitely’ve misplaced time and need to do it once more.
Different errors are attribution gaps, skipping pre-launch tech checklists, and launching with out QA-ing your promoting circulate. Having the product prepared and having your campaigns prepared doesn’t actually imply that one of many campaigns isn’t going to fail as a result of one thing has occurred with configs.
And it’s very, quite common. Or generally individuals neglect to place the fee methodology into their advert account, or no matter.
So, it’s good to be sure all these small checks are achieved and that you simply talk outcomes and caveats clearly to the broader crew in order that no one in different groups thinks it’s black magic, as a result of it’s not.
It’s simply very tedious, repetitive work.
I imply, because of it being 2025, there’s loads of machine studying, numerous automation, and I’m going to say the AI phrase as nicely, which is a bit useful for a number of the mundane work. However nonetheless, there are many issues we’ve got to do ourselves, and doing the final tiny, annoying, small, mundane checks is at all times useful.
Development advertising and marketing throughout gaming vs. non-gaming apps
Jon Jordan: That’s kind of the primary little bit of the podcast immediately, taking a look at that. And now we’re going to kind of transfer on.
Once more, one thing you talked about: you’ve spent loads of time in video games, but additionally advising non-gaming apps, and also you’ve labored on non-game apps as nicely.
Clearly, we usually discuss video games within the podcast, nevertheless it’s attention-grabbing to see how the opposite facet lives and possibly be taught a bit from that as nicely.
So, I assume the core abilities that you simply’ve been engaged on within the final 14 years are broadly the identical in non-gaming apps. I assume the apps themselves clearly have a barely totally different use case relying on what the app is.
They’ll have very totally different functions, from banking to social apps to journey, no matter.
What are you able to inform us about that distinction?
Saikala Sultanova: I assumed there could be loads of variations, and after I’ve labored with a number of the initiatives, one among them was psychological well being, and one other one was a FinTech right here within the UK, I discovered the muse of operational development advertising and marketing—data-driven decision-making, inventive manufacturing, advert tech integration, reporting, and funds administration—interprets immediately.
The advertising and marketing combine with advert networks is just about copy-paste.
There are some variations as a result of non-gaming is much more superior with CRM and web-to-app advertising and marketing, and net generally. They’re much more superior, however all the pieces cellular is just about copy-paste.
And I don’t suppose there’s a large distinction, irrespective of the trade. In all probability e-commerce could be much more totally different; I haven’t labored with e-commerce but.
However yeah, gaming pushes you to check quick and be taught rapidly from outcomes, and take care of campaigns with agility. The distinction with these non-gaming apps is that it takes a bit bit longer.
You have to take a look at the conversion ratio, conversion home windows which might be a bit bit longer, whether or not it’s FinTech, way of life, or well being. And that is one thing that’s totally different.
Aside from that, just about all the pieces is recyclable.
Jon Jordan: And I assume to some extent, during the last 10 years, we’ve had this concept of gamification.
So even well being, and significantly well being, however even kind of FinTech apps, have been influenced by game-type options, which in all probability additionally performs a bit bit into the advertising and marketing in order that they’ve converged in some elements.
Saikala Sultanova: Within the final couple of years, it turned nearly like a development with subscription apps to gamify the expertise as a result of that brings engagement.
If it’s a subscription app, you pay your month-to-month subscription or no matter it might be.
The conversion to your web buy isn’t essential for you since you don’t promote single packages on a regular basis.
Due to this fact, one of the vital essential measurements for you’ll be engagement: How usually is your app utilized by your clients? Is it useful? Is it partaking? Do they really feel valued as a buyer?
Transferable abilities and recommendation for entrepreneurs exploring new verticals
Jon Jordan: Whenever you’ve labored on non-gaming apps in comparison with gaming apps, what have you ever thought are the alternatives that folks with expertise in gaming can convey to a brand new function in the event that they’re making an attempt to do that development advertising and marketing on non-gaming apps?
What actually shines?
Saikala Sultanova: You imply what actually shines from non-gaming, or…?
Jon Jordan: Yeah. Nicely, if individuals have been working in gaming and are attempting to say, “I’ve obtained these transferable abilities that I’ve realized in gaming over the previous couple of years, and I might help you together with your non-gaming apps,” what issues do you suppose they will actually leverage?
Saikala Sultanova: Rather a lot, really. I used to be pleasantly stunned after I tried for the primary time.
It’s rather a lot, particularly on person acquisition. Go-to-market plan could be very related; I’d say 70% is identical, and 30% is one thing that’s outdoors of gaming.
In terms of inventive manufacturing, it’s precisely the identical—inventive manufacturing, testing, and enhancing iterations and all of that. So it’s precisely the identical.
Channels are precisely the identical, possibly for non-gaming it’s a bit bit wider than for gaming, which is nice.
The one distinction in inventive manufacturing and testing is—nicely, testing is identical, really—however in inventive manufacturing for non-gaming, static creatives are essential.
It could possibly be as essential as 40 to 50% of the whole advert spend, and so they convert.
That’s fairly good as a result of the way in which the product is perceived is totally different, and the extent of belief or degree of data, degree of accuracy, is much more essential.
What else?
Advert tech, attribution, measurement, something to do with inventive labelling, AI instruments—just about all of that’s transferable 100%.
Non-gaming apps wish to have fancy instruments as nicely, so something to enhance their work life and make it extra environment friendly, after all they may utilise that.
Reporting is precisely the identical.
The one factor with non-gaming is that they go additional down the funnel as a result of CRM is a part of the advertising and marketing crew, after which there’s further product advertising and marketing, web-to-app search, and search engine optimization is essential.
In order that turns into a a lot wider scope and, subsequently, a for much longer time and funnel the place it’s good to report for a protracted time frame, and never simply common ROAS or no matter it might be.
It’s greater than that.
However aside from that, I’d say in all probability 70 to 75% of what we be taught and do daily in gaming is just about transferable.
Jon Jordan: I assume for video games, as you say, you might have your D1, D7, possibly D30, however video games are sometimes disposable in a means that non-gaming apps usually are not.
They simply don’t have that very same relationship. A financial institution, hopefully, has a unique, long-term relationship with its customers than possibly a sport, the place individuals are simply biking via video games on a regular basis.
Saikala Sultanova: Proper. It relies upon what sort of sport. Whether it is hyper-casual, the one which has a return on funding goal of 30 days, 60 most, and retention is horrible after that, then after all, these are throwaway video games, and they’re numerous enjoyable.
However then there are some video games that folks play for years and years, and people are the video games that will not have promoting in them.
In the event you’ve already spent a thousand bucks in that sport, shopping for in-app buy packages and progressing in your degree, you wish to stick with it.
You could be there for a 12 months or two till one thing higher comes alongside.
Jon Jordan: What kind of recommendation would you give to people who find themselves advertising and marketing professionals, UA professionals, and have expertise within the video games trade?
How have you ever discovered it working with these two various things?
I imply, I assume everybody at all times thinks video games are the actually enjoyable a part of the trade, and clearly, to some extent, I agree with that being a gaming podcast.
However a lot of the world will not be gaming, and I’m certain there are many enjoyable corporations doing non-gaming apps.
So what recommendation would you give individuals about that?
Saikala Sultanova: I’d say maintain an open thoughts and lean into what makes every vertical distinctive, respecting the tempo of studying.
Don’t simply assume what labored for video games will switch as is. It wouldn’t be 100%, however numerous these abilities are transferable, particularly should you’re curious.
It’s essential to search out mentors within the trade on each side, in gaming and non-gaming, and experiment loads.
Make mates together with your analytics and product groups, ensuring that you simply’re actually into one thing that issues.
Celebrating wins is essential, even when it’s a small win. With each take a look at, you be taught one thing. It’s actually essential.
And don’t be afraid to problem the playbook as a result of playbooks get written on a regular basis, and so they additionally get outdated on a regular basis.
Due to this fact, refreshing your information is de facto, actually essential.
To your remark, really, that gaming is extra enjoyable. Gaming is extra enjoyable! I can say that now.
There are fewer limitations, much less boundaries, and also you generally is a bit edgy and you are able to do stuff in accordance with model pointers, or if there are not any model pointers, even higher.
With FinTech, you possibly can’t, since you’re a regulated enterprise. With a number of the well being apps, you possibly can’t as nicely; it’s regulated as a result of it’s good to be sure the recommendation or regardless of the product is speaking to the person that’s to do together with your well being is cautious.
So gaming is extra enjoyable.
You already know what else is extra enjoyable proper now and trending amongst subscription apps?
The AI apps, AI face apps, and plenty of different issues like even podcast-making apps.
These, I feel, are on the rise already, and I’ll be wanting ahead to studying from them as a result of I feel in a short time they’re going to be a lot better than gaming.
Jon Jordan: You bought it. However it’s such as you say, irrespective of how a lot expertise you might have on this, there’s at all times new stuff arising.
We at all times need to be studying.
Clearly, the extra expertise you might have, the higher basis you might have, and possibly you possibly can perceive what the essential or new issues are, nevertheless it’s by no means a case of simply sitting again and going, “Nicely, I’ve achieved this for 10 years, so I’ll simply maintain doing the identical outdated factor.”
Saikala Sultanova: It’s okay for some, and it’s okay too as a result of we want these sorts of individuals additionally.
You may’t simply have 100% of your crew or 100% of your organization at all times eager to run wild.
You have to have a variety of various ideas and other people and tradition, and it’s essential to have a little bit of everybody.
Anyone must do the mundane factor daily, and also you want these individuals; anyone’s comfy with that, and anyone’s not.
I feel a very powerful factor is to remain curious and continue to learn.
Closing
Jon Jordan: Good recommendation. Nicely, thanks a lot on your time. That’s actually fascinating. We coated loads of totally different stuff there. I feel there have been some good headline issues: ensure you’re not only a crew by yourself; it’s important to speak to your whole crew, not simply the UA crew; maintain issues easy, actually within the early phases; and continue to learn, maintain curious.
So thanks a lot on your time.
Saikala Sultanova: Thanks for having me.
Jon Jordan: No, it’s been a pleasure, and because of you for watching, listening, nevertheless you might be consuming the podcast. Bear in mind, each episode we’re delving into what’s happening with cellular video games, which is more and more expansive within the matters that we cowl, and having to be interested in it as a result of it’s all altering on a regular basis. So don’t miss out. Do subscribe, and we are going to see you subsequent time. Bye-bye.